Welcome to the Sleep Edit, a podcast devoted to helping tired
kids and parents sleep better.
We focus on actionable evidence-based sleep advice, so everyone in your
home can sleep through the night.
Now, a quick disclaimer, this podcast is for general informational purposes
only and does not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing, or
other professional healthcare services, including the giving of medical advice.
No doctor patient relationship is formed.
The use of this information and the materials linked to this
podcast and any associated video content are at the user's own risk.
The content on the show is not intended to be a substitute for professional
medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Users should not disregard or delay obtaining medical help for
any medical condition they have.
Or that their children may have, they should seek the assistance
of their healthcare professionals for any such conditions.
Nothing stated here reflects the views of our employers or
the employees of our guests.
Enjoy the show.
Hey, welcome back to the Sleep Edit podcast.
I'm Dr. Craig Canapari.
And I'm Arielle Greenleaf.
So this is the podcast where we talk about children sleep
sleep problems, sleep solutions.
Uh, And since we're taping late July, we thought it'd be a good time
to talk about summer sleep issues and back to school sleep issues.
Yes, and I, we here in the northeast tend to go back much
later than the rest of the country.
So I know that there are children getting ready for back to school in the next
couple of weeks, which blows my mind.
Yeah, think a in the south, a lot of kids go back early August,
maybe first or second week.
I think the reason is so that more kids are in air conditioning during the
hottest part of the summer, but not sure.
see it's like different for us here 'cause our schools aren't air conditioned.
Yeah.
and the September can be pretty hot so you know what it, it's funny because
in my world I see this a lot, but mostly indirectly because teenagers
will come to see me for other reasons, maybe sleep reasons or sometimes even,
'cause I'm also a pulmonologist for asthma, but I always ask about sleep and
teenagers will often say, oh, I'm going.
Bed at three or four in the morning and sleeping all day.
And you know, we, that can cause some significant issues,
which we're gonna get into.
and I think certain other populations tend to struggle too with with Uh, Specifically
autistic kids as well have a lot more.
Uh, Difficulty regulating their behaviors outside of the routines
that they have during the school year.
Um, What sort of stuff do you see in the summertime?
It's, I feel like people, even if they're traveling just on weekends
or a week here, a week there, some people go away for the whole summer
for a month, and then they come back.
And even if they're not going to school, they're going to daycare or mom and dad
are back to work after being on vacation.
I definitely have an influx of clients at the end of August
and through September because.
Everyone's just trying to get back into routine adjusting to the
environment, adjusting the schedule, waking up earlier to get to daycare.
I do find that people tend to struggle as the summer wraps up.
Yeah.
And, And and this is not to say that you need to be crazy in the
summertime and super vigilant about your kids' Part of the fun of
being a parent in the summertime is kicking back a little bit and letting
things be a little bit more relaxed.
But I still think kids should you know, parents should, even with older kids
provide some guidance uh, around sleep.
And for younger kids too.
Keeping routines intact as much as possible does tend to avoid that
sort of September difficulties.
I Well, you know, i've always been interested in this topic, but the pandemic
we, you know, where kids basically had a summer that was six or eight months
long, and what I what I mean by that is.
School closed, at least in the United States in March.
And for many kids, either in the fall, they were going back to hybrid
programs like they did in our town or in many cities like New Haven where
I work, kids were outta school for through the first semester at least.
were the, here were the sleep changes that we saw during the pandemic.
One was a drastic increase in screen time.
Two was a later shift of bedtime and wake time across age groups.
Three was interestingly, more nighttime sleep.
Um, Four was less napping in young kids, and five was less sleep disturbance.
And this is not a perfect analogy to what we see in the summertime,
there's, there are some parallels.
When I was trying to understand this, I came across a research
paper from 2017, which was actually looking at the increase in obesity
in kids during the summer months.
which is an interesting phenomenon.
We always think of the summertime, perhaps thinking back to, for me, the
eighties uh, summertime being much more active than the school year.
Um, But these they coined this idea called the structured days hypothesis,
and they said that during the school year, specifically the school week, kids had
structured wake times, they had compulsory periods of physical activity, right?
They had gym class, they had recess, they had restricted
screen time during the day, right?
Like no teacher , would say oh , you're being annoying here.
Have an iPad for five hours.
And there are structured meal times.
Yeah.
And you know many children I see who struggle with weight because weight
overlaps a lot with respiratory and some sleep problems, their parents will
say their kids are hungry all the time.
One of my colleagues, Rachel Goldberg-Gell in the.
Obesity clinic always says to parents is your kid snacking incessantly in school?
And the answer is no.
The teachers don't just say, oh, yeah, go to the closet and um, some
Takis or chocolate chip They're just like, no they, they, the kids don't
even ask because it's not an option.
Whereas in the summertime uh, if you're at home, it's very easy to
go access snacks that aren't always nutritionally and the authors say the
changes that happen in the summer are a later shift in sleep and wake times
Yep.
more snacking and nutrition.
know, Say what you will about school lunches.
I don't remember them being super delicious, but there are at
least some baseline nutritional standards that they have to meet.
And a lot of research has shown that a later sleep time in children is associated
with an increase in body mass In obesity.
Uh, There's this one study that's very interesting that looked at kids in a
gifted program in Mississippi uh, over the summer, kids nine to 15, and there were,
there was a group with early sleep periods and a group with later sleep periods.
Um, And the early sleep period kids they're.
Sleep was from 9:40pm to 7:50am
. The The later group was 1:45 AM to 10:45 AM
What age group was this?
9 to 15.
Okay.
And the kids in the later sleep group were more likely to make
poor dietary choices, consume more sugary, caffeinated beverages, select
other foods like high nutritional density, poor nutritional content.
So these changes in the summertime can have a real
effect on our children's health.
Even if as a parent, the sleep is not causing us problems, the kids aren't
waking us up, the kids being disruptive.
Letting your child have free reign in the summertime can have
significant health consequences.
Yeah.
And, And we were brainstorming the, what are the sort of factors
that can affect sleep in the
Yeah.
I think for, you often are dealing with school aged children and I'm mostly
dealing with infants and toddlers and certainly, one of the things I
saw, especially on social media this year was there was a huge, I know.
only saw the uk, there was a huge heat wave and
there's
I was, I was
You were there.
and there's not a lot of air conditioning over there.
And so keeping children cool, and especially infants, which is essential
for SIDS prevention, protection.
And so keeping them cool is.
An important thing, but how do you keep them cool if you don't even have
air conditioning, things like that.
it it is true in the context of climate change.
We take air conditioning for granted in a lot of places in the States.
And in Europe that is not the case.
Two years ago we were in Rome and we went to the Vatican, which is the
home to many priceless works of art.
And it is not climate controlled.
Uh, The Sistine Chapel is lightly climate controlled, but I asked,
I think it was probably about 80 degrees in there when I went in.
Which is pretty remarkable when you think of there's
literally priceless works of art.
And they're like, be, will be.
they've survived this
long,
it, it is very clear that as the climate warms, and especially in the
summertime, it has an effect on And that's a safety issue in young uh,
infants where we know elevated room temperatures are a SIDS risk factor.
right.
Do you have suggestions on how to help with that?
Fans obviously keeping, one of the things that I always recommend is keeping the
shades drawn throughout the day so that the sun isn't coming through the windows
and, overheating the room even more.
and that, that's why so many European homes have shutters for that
right.
reason.
Fans I I think personally, if you live in a really hot climate I I would
recommend getting a window air conditioner if it is all possible for your baby.
Um, You dress them very lightly.
probably, they can sleep just in just a onesie or even just a diaper.
Um, They don't need a blanket.
And really pay attention to if it's, if it's dangerously uh, maybe go to a
cooling center or to a friend's house where they have a cooler setting.
Uh, You might even decamp to the basement to sleep.
Yeah.
but it's, it can be hard to mitigate.
For infants and toddlers, their situations are pretty similar.
Again.
Environment being in a different place, which some children are
great travelers, some are not.
Mine was in the latter category.
There are a lot of naps on the go.
So instead of being in a crib, they're, in a car or in a stroller
as people are on vacation.
People have to live their lives, right?
You can't expect people to have three crib naps for their
infant if they're on vacation.
Those are some of the things that I find the most challenging.
Also, being out, like you were talking about, being outta their typical routine.
You might have a party in the evening, and so bedtime may be a little bit later.
Some children, again, do well with that.
Some do not.
Either way, when you're getting back.
Even if your child is adjusted to a later bedtime.
coming back to get back on track and that can cause some, difficulty
for some parents and families.
Yeah.
And I think when we go by ages kind of talk about the
different sorts of strategies.
'cause I think that gonna be look very for like a baby
for
versus a toddler.
Um, and just to go to some of other affect kids right?
The further north you are, the longer the days are.
Yes.
famously, in insomnia is endemic in Alaska in the summertime
where it's like a 20 hour day.
where we live in the northeast, it's a little bit longer.
And a lot of that's nice, right?
Like you can, the fa as a family, you can spend time outside in the evenings
much more than you can in the wintertime.
It's not all bad, but it does change your routine.
So controlling that, if you're able to, and I think most people are
able to at least control it a little bit, but exposure to light, right?
A lot of my clients are going to bed before the sun goes down, right?
It's it's tricky though, 'cause like little kids are so light sensitive.
Like, You can definitely see kids like getting up earlier in the mornings.
Yeah.
My child she's getting in that, prepubescent time, and I can already
see her sleep on set shifting later.
And she's waking later in the morning, way later in the morning, but she was
so sensitive to any light, so there could be a sliver of light coming in
around a curtain, and she'd be up at five 30 or five o'clock in the morning.
I find that now that she's 10, almost 11.
The light doesn't bother her at all.
So I agree that younger children, they see the light, they're up.
thing, one hack that kind of worked for us when we were traveling, we were
staying at a vacation house we we to.
shuffle The the kids a little bit.
So the kids that got up younger were in the same room.
you know, it's, it is fun for the cousins like having sleepovers
anyway, in my experience.
And that way at least, you're not gonna protect your own sleep particularly, but
you can maybe protect the sleep of some of the kids who need a little bit more sleep.
I remember my aunt, my wife's has a place on the beach and we were staying
there and the younger kids, a, she had a walk-in closet without a window.
So like the really little kids we'd put in there, 'cause it's dark.
And and this is really gonna vary depending on your situation where
you're traveling, but sometimes changing where people sleep um,
shuffling, who is sleeping with whom.
And I'd say also recognizing that other families have different
rules and routines than, do.
And if you're traveling, if know, really strict about electronics
and the other family isn't.
Just be aware that you kids are gonna be asking you about that.
And I'm not gonna mention by name the people in our lives
who on vacation would let their.
Child fall asleep in pack and play with an know, you know who you are.
I think when we talk about teenagers, we can talk about things uh, that
are really sleep positive summer camp uh, summer jobs camping.
summer camp has been good for my daughter, but like waking her up at six
30 this morning, she's wanna get up.
But I'm like, dude, your bus is coming at eight this fall.
'cause you're gonna be in middle school this year.
Last year for the past five years, it's been 9:00 AM which is super late.
She could have gone, she would've been fine going to school at 8:00 AM for the
past five years, but now it would've been better for her to go at nine.
But I know you're a huge advocate for later start times for older children too.
And and looking ahead to middle schoolers and high schoolers it,
it can be a real rough landing uh, prepare for uh, given how early
school starts for a lot of those kids.
So I think we talked a little bit about infants already, specifically
around the heat factors in travel.
What other sort of tips do you have, like for your clients who have.
You know, baby's less than a year of age if they're traveling or it's
just the summertime in general.
I think we've talked about this on previous episodes about travel tips
and tricks, but There's only so much we can control, and if our babies
and toddlers are out of their own environment, they may not sleep well.
you may have to throw the rule book out in order to get the
sleep that everyone needs.
Obviously try to control the environment.
Dark, cool, quiet, safe.
Try to keep them on schedule.
Even if the nap is on the go.
Try to keep it a normal timeframe so that your kid isn't like down by
you're trying to give them a nap.
Just, keeping them well rested, but also just.
Trying to have fun and let go a little bit.
'cause I think can get so scared to even travel because they don't
wanna get outta their routine because they have literal PTSD from
when their children poor sleepers.
So it can be scary, but if you can try to remember that your children
now, you can get back on track when you're home, that can be freeing.
you got, you gotta have a balance, right?
the fact, the fact is.
I know a lot of the, our favorite stories in our family about vacations
are sometimes go go And in the moment it's stressful, kind of funny,
Great.
uh, in retrospect and you you can't manage everything.
you know, sometimes your kid's gonna have a tantrum when you're traveling.
It's fine.
Everybody has been there, and I guarantee you any adult in the vicinity.
Uh, Who has been a parent at some point is just grateful that it's not their kid.
but also having empathy, don't feel bad if you're out there and your
toddler's having a tantrum at the beach if you're surrounded by parents.
We've all experienced it.
I'm glad it's not my child, but at the same time I have so much empathy and
sympathy and grace for those parents that are going through that while their child.
And the thing is for me, as I always say, also in addition to sleep, is make
sure you're feeding them regularly.
Like you said feeding schedules can get thrown off and.
Children can get very hangry.
They can And as long as your child is well fed and you're keeping
them well rested on some sort of a schedule, you should be okay.
Yeah, like if your kid's being really difficult, they're probably either
angry or leaving is not gonna be great.
Yeah.
And I'd say for toddlers, the rules of the same.
You maybe have toddlers are a little bit less adaptable than infants,
I agree
I mean, And they're gonna, there's this idea we've talked about the
Fri forbidden zone In the evening.
You really have two windows where your kid's gonna fall asleep, so
your kid misses the, their bedtime.
They might be really active and of wide awake.
I don't think you have to push it.
If they're acting crazy and they're running around having fun with their
cousins or whatever, just recognize little, there may be a little bit of
a consequence to but that, but that's is vacationing as a parent is not like
vacation before you have a parent.
And I remember it being a rude awakening uh, on our first trip away with
Charlie being like, oh, I can't just.
Hang out by the pool and drink beer and and read a book.
like, I actually am not sitting down.
That's why
Um,
vacations.
I, I, I, the article, my blog about uh, is vacation quote, sleep, which
I was probably terrible for SEO, but that's that's just what it is.
it, low, you are less likely to be disappointed.
it's difficult though if you're a type A parent.
And I work with a lot of type A parents.
It's very difficult to let go and then to handle if things
get crazy while you're away.
And, And there's also the people who you see a lot of who have
struggled with their kids' sleep.
They And they're reluctant to deviate from their routine, tricky.
I'm not gonna lie.
I see sometimes parents come in and oh, my kids kids sleep was going great.
And then we went on vacation and I brought her into bed with me now she
has slept in my bed for three years.
Um.
That's very common.
that that is true in our world.
That doesn't mean it's the majority of kids uh, where that will happen.
it's what I see.
if it's
yeah.
causing problems, I'm not gonna see it.
think, And I think if you've got an older child, say a preschool or a school age
kid, and you're making some deviations from the routine, like bed sharing,
it's worth saying, oh, this is a what a fun sleepover we're gonna have here.
This isn't what we do at home,
Right,
we're, we're gonna share the same room.
Maybe you're gonna be in bed uh, with one parent and your brother
will be in bed with the other parent.
And what a, what a fun treat for us to do this is not how we're gonna normally,
we normally do that that uh, I think a good conversation to have you know, I
can say for us, you know, when we go on vacation, we usually share a room with
our kids because we're not billionaires.
know, Everybody's gotta be a little bit more flexible.
The struggles are different when you have teenagers, like specifically
around people, kids spending a lot of time in the bathroom.
or taking very long showers when we're all trying to But that's
part of the fun of it too, right?
absolutely.
So, So let's get into school age kids.
'cause I I gotta say this is something I deal with probably more than you
do and I see these are the kids to tend to have more uh, in general,
infants and toddlers are not gonna shift their schedule super late.
And there's a couple of reasons for this.
One is.
Most of them biologically, they're early risers.
And we tend to have stricter rules for little kids, like kids who are sleeping
in cribs, kids who are sleeping in toddler beds than we do for school age kids.
And and I will say kids that really need their routines, like children with autism
who tend to thrive with set routines.
Can have a real difficult time in the summer.
Many special needs kids will go to school year round.
Uh, They'll go to summer school or summer programs, but there still
are gaps of at least two to three weeks at the beginning of the off.
And families in this context can really dread this because it
means that everything gets off, behaviors get off diet gets off.
Sleep gets extremely disrupted.
Hmm.
And what I say to families this is, this is hard, is to try to replicate their
schedule as much as possible and really make sure they're active during the day.
And the fact is, as a parent, you really can provide as much
stimulation to They're they're interacting with many different people.
You can't perfectly replicate that degree of stimulation, that degree of activity.
But taking your kid to the park on a set routine, going to a playground,
if there is an appropriate summer program your ch your special needs
child, it can be very helpful.
it is, it is a challenging time for many special needs the flip side is
I've seen many kids in this situation struggling, They're struggling, and
they're like age four and a half, they start kindergarten and all of
a sudden things get a lot better
because so,
structured environment.
it's a finite period of time.
parents, if you're struggling, if you can find anyone to help you
get any respite care from other family members, it can be difficult.
In general, I think it's important for kids school I, I think through ages
12 or 14, you still have to have a bedtime for your kids and it doesn't
have to be the same bedtime, but I would not recommend, say having your
8-year-old have no bedtime, which I see very frequently in the summertime,
Yeah.
um, that they're there's this vibe well, you don't have to, anything you gotta
do tomorrow, just do whatever you want.
And if they're teenagers in the house, their little kids
will wanna be on that schedule.
Yeah.
Um, you know, I think it's still good to have a bedtime.
My recommendation is if your kid is.
not in puberty yet.
Usually shifting the schedule about an hour later is a pretty safe bet
for Kids in puberty.
We'll get to like teenagers uh, and pre-teens two hours I think
is fine and much more realistic
Mm-hmm.
and maybe on special nights even later.
But like on an average night, I'd say, you know, if they go to bed
at nine o'clock on the school week, let you know, have 'em go to bed 10.
Or if they're like, like if they're like a 11 or 12-year-old, like 11 at
the it's just, you don't want to have to unroll this at the end of the Be
because I guarantee not, your child is not doing enriching activities.
They're probably on screens.
Yeah
uh, one excuse that has never carried water in my house and
doesn't for my patients either is what other kids are doing.
Yeah.
Just because your 10 year old's friend is up all night on Snapchat or something
does not mean that your child gets to do I I also would strongly recommend
that you have the same screen time rules in the summer as you do uh, during
the school which that your your kids' devices don't live in the room at night.
right.
That can be hard to reinforce with teenagers who go to bed later,
Then
you
later Than you than you do.
Sure.
uh, I'd say for teens kind of take a different tack.
For, I think teenagers need to have some autonomy and if you're trying to
manage their bedtime You know, They may not be working and you're working is a
battle, but trying to set a wake time is mutually agreed upon is a good idea.
uh, Again, there's the perfect world and there's the real world.
And the real world may their wake time a is a little a little bit later than you
like, but your child can commit to it and it's not gonna be a battle every day.
Right.
Uh, This is why summer activities are so important for older kids.
I can tell you like summer camp is like magic for my kids with
sleep issues um, because especially sleepaway camp, if they go away.
Uh, The rules at camp are much more
Most summer camps, they're not necessarily letting them have their devices, or
at least they have rules around them.
And the kids are very busy during the day.
Yeah, they're outside.
outside.
did, I did computer
Okay.
All right.
I actually was too nerdy to go sleep away camp.
I was, I was too much of a fraidy Boy Scout.
So you were on screens
was on, I was on a, yeah, like a monochrome monitor, writing
programs in BASIC, that would say my name a million times.
your brain,
I was Using my brain my weak little nerd body to carry books around and stuff.
um, Summer jobs are helpful.
sort of like real magical reset uh, and that is camping.
there's There's actually a couple of articles looking at camping
for teenagers that have really severe delayed sleep phase.
When we say delayed sleep phase, that means their natural sleep periods
have shifted significantly later than they need to be for their lives.
So imagine a kid who's sleeping from three to noon every day.
During the pandemic, when we had this longer period, I saw many teenagers
who were up all night and sleeping all day, and there wasn't much we could
do about it because if everybody's doing it, is it a problem or does
it just reflect the circumstances?
am laughing because that was me when I was a teenager.
know,
Yeah.
like up late and sleeping till noon, and now I'm like, lucky
if I can sleep till 8:00 AM
So that's, uh, your child will ruin your sleep.
That's true.
of waking up in the five and 6:00 AM
you become a obligate morning person.
Um.
because I'm up now earlier than my child, which just blows my mind.
Oh yeah, too.
I'm I'm the person that gets everybody up in our house.
But but anyway, going back to the camping thing, they took kids with
these sleep schedules on a camping trip.
They did not have them bring their screens and over four days they
totally reset to going to bed not too late and getting uh, close to dawn
Is
like.
It was from it was from, I I think they were thinking it was largely uh,
the technical term would entrainment uh, having the only light exposures,
being natural light exposures.
Um, But the, I I'm sure they weren't just sitting around the uh, listening
to them complain about the fact they didn't have their phones.
But, you know, so I'd say if you have a teenager that's really shifted late and
your family likes to do something like this, if you planned a trip like this
at the end of the summer, it actually.
Might be very helpful.
Another thing that comes uh, 'cause I I, I I care for a wide
range from various socioeconomic backgrounds , but but I do care for a
fair amount of affluent uh, families.
if if you are traveling east that will also help set your schedule earlier.
So on the East Coast, if you're going to Europe or if you're on the west
coast, you're coming to the East coast.
It'll take about one day of jet lag to fully set your schedule schedule.
If you come back right into the school year, your kid will have
an easier time getting up early.
Again, not your insurance is gonna pay for a trip to Europe, but if you
were planning on it anyway and you had concerns about this, doing it at
the end of the summer may be helpful.
I am gonna let my boss know that because they live in California and she was
telling me that they're gonna be on the East coast for vacation, and then the
next week the kids go back to school.
So that's actually gonna benefit everybody.
It is perfect.
I'd say um, the big themes for me would be Let, let, Let's do round robin, like
what are the things you'd say to parents in general, what to do this summer?
the me, for me, number one, keep a routine.
Doesn't have to be exactly week as the school year routine.
For most kids have a set bed time, I'd say for ages 12 to 14 and up.
have a set wake time.
What, What's a good one for you?
So for going on vacation, like you were saying before, my clients come to me.
in desperation.
I don't have people coming to me with easy children or
you know,
Sure.
that were great sleepers, you know what I'm saying?
They become easier once they do sleep.
going away, I just really try to impress upon parents, keep them well rested.
Try to stick to a similar schedule within half an hour of what you normally are
seeing little infants are much easier.
if they're sleep trained and they're on a real schedule, they can be pretty rigid.
try to keep the schedule within 30 to 60 minutes.
Even if it's on the go, that's fine.
Car naps, stroller, naps.
keep bedtime at a reasonable hour.
If it's going to be a later bedtime, add another little 30 minute stroller, nap
for an infant, things And for toddlers, usually the toddlers are on one nap.
So if you can prioritize that nap, go to the beach in the morning, come
home, have lunch, nap time, go back to the beach, something like that,
that can help immensely as well.
Skip the hottest time of the day of the
Ultimately, people are scared because they have dealt with children that haven't
slept, and it's been recent, right?
They've finally gotten them to a good place.
So I try to just let them know your kids have the skills to
sleep well, to remember that.
Do Get back on schedule and when you get back on schedule, I talk about the
controlled wake up, what you were saying.
Controlling that wake up time will then help naps fall into the right timing and
then bedtime fall into the right timing.
And it may take a little bit to adjust, but within a couple of
days, babies and toddlers can pretty quickly adjust back to what I would
say if you fell into bad habits.
Try to eliminate that as soon as possible when you get back.
It can be tricky and your child might protest, but it shouldn't take
more than a day or two to get back.
I I think that's really good advice you, If you have achieved good sleep,
you will be able to achieve it again.
Um, And you know, parents come back to me, they're like, my kid was sleeping
well, and then they're not, and they're like, I don't know what happened.
And then you start asking them and they're like, yeah, bedtime
slipped a little bit later.
And I started falling.
I started staying with him when he falls asleep again and be like, Um, One thing
I to in the summertime um, there's a lot of evidence that kids actually without
routines, get a little bit less sleep than they do during the school year,
which is the opposite of what we of like, oh, the summers are chill, the kid,
if the kids are staying up super late.
Even if they're shifting their wake time later, just think about what happens.
The room is getting bright,
Mm-hmm.
They're getting less sleep.
So I would say that to parents, it's okay for the schedule to
slide a little bit, but you still have to pay attention to make sure
your child's getting enough sleep.
Absolutely.
And, And the best barometer of that on most kids is if you have to wake
them up in the morning, they're probably not getting enough sleep
and.
I won't say the teenagers lie, but they may shade the truth if you
ask them when they went to sleep.
There's a cool hack.
Somebody showed uh, at least on iPhones, where you can look at the
battery consumption on Someone's phone
Oh.
see when they stopped using it.
So if you actually want to ask your like, they're like, oh, I went to bed then,
and be like, oh, you know, let me just, I I guess this should be agreed upon in
advance that you're able to look at your kid's phone uh, with their permission.
You can actually see when they stopped looking at it the night before
like when the screen went off.
if you have parental controls set up on an iPhone, my daughter has an iPad and I
have from my phone to see even how long she spent on any given thing, like YouTube
sure.
doesn't have social media, so I can see how long she was on there for and
when she started and stopped using it.
will say the ultimate parental control at night is having
possession of your child's devices.
for
I am skeptical of any parent who says that software is keeping their
child from accessing their device at night if it's in their room,
it's
I.
allowed in her room at night.
um, um, do you use just Apple stuff or use like Life 360 or something?
at the point of life.
360 I. Learning about it.
So I just use the apple, whatever it is on there.
It shows you screen
time
Yeah,
But eventually I will be putting other things on there.
That's what we know.
I just didn't feel like.
Surveilling them that closely.
But every family makes different decisions.
So I think we should close by talking about what do you do if is shifted a
lot later this is incredibly common for me to see teenagers come in and they've
shifted their schedule much later.
So here's what I recommend.
I think for most kids.
plan on for, uh, at least four or five days before the beginning of
the school year, getting them up at eight in the morning, taking
them up for a walk in the sunshine.
That's all you really need to do.
You don't need to have, make some big production about this, but I would say
for kids that consistently sleeping very late and I'd say very late is
more than four or five hours later,
Hmm
they're gonna have to wake up for school.
So honestly, they're have to get up at six in the morning for school, which is a
common wake time in the US for teenagers.
They're gonna have a real hard time when school starts
if you don't make some plans.
Um, And I a couple of recommendations in And and the first is actually.
You've gotta talk with your child about this issue.
If you're trying to roll out some changes and they don't understand
why or aren't on board, it's just gonna create a lot of conflict.
I of talk to, your kid may be thinking about this and be like, hey, I noticed
you've been sleeping pretty You're starting school in a couple of weeks.
That's gonna be pretty rough.
I think that might be pretty rough for you.
And just talk to 'em a little bit about it.
For kids that are really shifted later you can move their
wake time earlier gradually.
You can do that pretty easily, pretty painlessly, about
10 to 15 minutes per day.
And you gotta get them on board with this.
know, getting up 15 minutes earlier day is a lot easier than well,
you've been getting up at noon now.
I just want you to start getting up at eight in the Bedtime is gonna adjust
if you start moving that earlier.
I think it's worth also talking with them about what the, if the
screen time rules are different in your home during the summertime.
uh, Having morning light exposure can be helpful.
Uh, Opening the blinds in the uh, before your teenager wakes
up can help entrain them earlier.
where this gets really tricky is if you have a kid that's quite late
shifted, like they're sleeping all day.
Sometimes that morning light exposure can actually.
Have the opposite effect because it's early in their circadian day.
Like Imagine you have a kid that's sleeping from 7:00 AM to 5:00 PM the
the strongest effect for wake time for for sunlight is about an hour
before you're naturally waking up.
uh, And if you're on the other side of that uh, the light
can move things the wrong way.
shift work.
Yeah.
Well, a, is a real complicated but yeah, I'd say opening the blinds an hour
or two before when they're naturally waking, would be the safe thing to do.
And I'd say if this is causing a lot of conflict in your house or you are really
worried about it, it would be worth taking your to your child's pediatrician.
it.
Sometimes having another adult who is not you talk about why this is important
can break through in a way that the fact is we all know even when I was I
don't wanna get content wearing here, I was gonna be say a crap head, teen.
I would recognize that my parents would be right about stuff, but if
they told me stuff, I still wouldn't it because they they were my parents
and it's lame to listen to them.
Um, but if another adult I trusted, like my pediatrician said the
same thing, being like, okay, they're probably right about this.
I know, in in involving your child's healthcare provider.
And really this is the time to start thinking about if your kid's going
back to school in a couple of weeks.
if, If hopefully we'll get Issue episode out pretty quickly um, or even it's a
month from just sort of thinking about these things set your child up for
success when the school year starts.
if if your child is sleep deprived for the first week of school, when
they're making impression for first impressions on their new teachers kind
of learning how the school year works.
Yeah, absolutely.
I don't think that I run into many issues with infants and toddlers
of shift in schedule, that drastic.
they've had to do something to assist their child to sleep, and then now they
wanna undo that when they get home.
a controlled wake up is helpful if the child has started sleeping later than
maybe you would be leaving for daycare.
I don't see that schedules have shifted by hours much so
the, the schedule stuff feel like is pretty easy in little kids.
biased.
They're getting up in the morning.
yeah, it's more putting the routine back together.
Um, and that can happen gradually, Like If you're like, oh, you had such a, I, I
would close with uh, for me personally, if you make some changes over the summer
where things are relaxed and things are still going well, that's okay.
Anything if it's working for your lifestyle.
know, Like sometimes people have this guilt about being like, oh, I started
falling asleep with my kid at bedtime, my, or staying with my kid till they
fall asleep like, well, do they wake up at night or are they sleeping well?
They're like, oh, they're sleeping great.
I'm like,
Does it
if it's disrupting sleep for everybody.
It.
It's funny, in the big Bible of sleep disorders, it's called the
International Classification of Sleep Disorders Chronic insomnia is defined
as three months of sleep problems.
So for adult insomnia, it's like being unsatisfied with your sleep is one of the
criteria for chronic insomnia kids is if the parent is unsatisfied with the sleep.
So really, parental satisfaction is a big dimension of this.
it's It's all, subjective.
Yeah.
So listen, that's all I got today.
Arielle, you always have to remind me where people can find us.
thesleepedit podcast@gmail.com.
yeah.
we'll we'll uh, links for stuff we talked about in the show notes.
And I think the next episode we're gonna be talking on
Yeah, I'm excited about that one.
That is a big one.
For when people are coming back from vacation.
Oh man, the struggle real.
real.
nap.
My older one was a terrible napper until he was like a year and
a half, and then he was great.
it's rough.
Okay, well hope everyone's having a good summer and uh, thanks for listening.
See you next time.
Thanks so much for listening to the Sleep edit.
You can find transcripts at the web address Sleeped show.
You can also find video of the episodes at that address as
well as in my YouTube channel.
You can find me at Dr. Craig canna perry.com and on all social
media at D-R-C-A-N-A-P-A-R-I.
You can find Ariel at Instagram at Ariel Greenleaf.
That's A-R-I-E-L-L-E-G-R-E.
N-L-E-A-F.
If you like the flavor of the advice here, please check out my book.
It's Never Too Late to Sleep.
Train the low stress way to high quality sleep for babies, kids, and parents.
It's available wherever fine books are sold.
If you found this useful, please subscribe at Spotify or Apple Podcast
and share it with your friends.
It really helps as we're trying to get the show off the ground.
Thanks.