Episode 14: Summer and Back to School Sleep Challenges

audio version summer sleep
Craig Canapari MD: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Sleep Edit, a podcast devoted to helping tired kids and parents sleep better. We focus on actionable evidence-based sleep advice, so everyone in your home can sleep through the night. Now, a quick disclaimer, this podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing, or other professional healthcare services, including the giving of medical advice.
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Hey, welcome back to the Sleep Edit podcast. I’m Dr. Craig Canapari.
Arielle Greenleaf: And I’m Arielle Greenleaf.
Craig Canapari MD: So this is the podcast where we talk about children sleep sleep problems, sleep solutions. Uh, And since we’re taping late July, we thought it’d be a good time to talk about summer sleep issues and back to school sleep issues.
Arielle Greenleaf: Yes, and I, we here in the northeast tend to go back much later than the rest of the country. So I know that there are children getting ready for back to school in the next couple of weeks, which blows my mind.
Craig Canapari MD: Yeah, I think a in the south, a lot of kids go back early August, maybe first or second week. I think the reason is so that more kids are in air conditioning during the hottest part of the summer, but not sure.
Arielle Greenleaf: see it’s like [00:02:00] different for us here ’cause our schools aren’t air conditioned.
Craig Canapari MD: it’s it’s true.
Arielle Greenleaf: Yeah.
Craig Canapari MD: and the September can be pretty hot so you know what it, it’s funny because in my world I see this a lot, but mostly indirectly because teenagers will come to see me for other reasons, maybe sleep reasons or sometimes even, ’cause I’m also a pulmonologist for asthma, but I always ask about sleep and teenagers will often say, oh, I’m going.
Bed at three or four in the morning and sleeping all day. And you know, we, that can cause some significant issues, which we’re gonna get into. and I think certain other populations tend to struggle too with with Uh, Specifically autistic kids as well have a lot more. Uh, Difficulty regulating their behaviors outside of the routines that they have during the school year.
Um, What sort of stuff do you see in the summertime?
Arielle Greenleaf: It similar. It’s, I feel like people, even if they’re traveling just on weekends or a week here, a week there, some people go away for the whole summer for a [00:03:00] month, and then they come back. And even if they’re just not, they’re not going to school, they’re going to daycare or mom and dad are back to work after being on vacation. I definitely have an influx of clients at the end of August and through September because. Everyone’s just trying to get back into routine and, that could be adjusting to the environment, adjusting the schedule, again, waking up earlier to get to daycare. so I, I do find that people tend to struggle as the summer wraps up.
Craig Canapari MD: Yeah. And, And and this is not to say that you need to be crazy in the summertime and super vigilant about your kids’ Part of the fun of being a parent in the summertime is kicking back a little bit and letting things be a little bit more relaxed. But I still think kids should you know, parents should, even with older kids provide some guidance uh, around sleep.
And for younger kids too. Keeping routines intact as much as possible does tend to avoid that sort of September difficulties.
I Well, you know, i’ve always been interested in this topic, but the [00:04:00] pandemic we, you know, where kids basically had a summer that was six or eight months long, and what I what I mean by that is.
School closed, at least in the United States in March. And for many kids, either in the fall, they were going back to hybrid programs like they did in our town or in many cities like New Haven where I work, kids were outta school for through the first semester at least. And I was asked to give a talk at work uh, something called the grand Rounds.
were the, here were the sleep changes that we saw during the pandemic. One was a drastic increase in screen time. Two was a later shift of bedtime and wake time across age groups. Three was interestingly, more nighttime sleep. Um, Four was less napping in young kids, and five was less sleep disturbance.
And this is not a perfect this is not a perfect analogy to what we see in the summertime, but there’s, there are some parallels. The reason it’s not perfect is because kids weren’t doing anything else either, right? Like they weren’t necessarily gonna summer camp or going to jobs or anything like that.
When I was trying to understand this, I came across a research paper from 2017, which was actually looking at the increase in obesity in kids during the summer months. Which which is an interesting [00:05:00] phenomenon. We always think of the summertime, perhaps thinking back to, for me, the eighties uh, summertime being much more active than the school year.
Um, But these they coined this idea called the structured days hypothesis, and they said that during the school year, specifically the school week, kids had structured wake times, they had compulsory periods of physical activity, right? They had gym class, they had recess, they had restricted screen time during the day, right?
Like no teacher , would say oh , you’re being annoying here. Have an iPad for five hours.
And there are structured meal times.
Arielle Greenleaf: Yeah.
Craig Canapari MD: And you know many children I see who struggle with weight because weight overlaps a lot with respiratory and some sleep problems, their parents will say their kids are hungry all the time.
One of my colleagues, Rachel Goldberg-Gell in the. Obesity clinic always says to parents is your kid snacking incessantly in school? And the answer is no. The teachers don’t just say, oh, yeah, go to the closet and grab um, some Takis or chocolate [00:06:00] chip They’re just like, no they, they, the kids don’t even ask because it’s not an option.
Whereas in the summertime uh, if you’re at home, it’s very easy to go access snacks that aren’t always nutritionally The reason this, and the authors say the changes that happen in the summer are a later shift in sleep and wake times
more screen time, right? Because parents are human too.
Arielle Greenleaf: Yep.
Craig Canapari MD: more snacking and nutrition. know, Say what you will about school lunches. I don’t remember them being super delicious, but there are at least some baseline nutritional standards that they have to meet.
And a lot of research has shown that a later sleep time in children is associated with an increase in body mass In obesity.
Uh, There’s this one study that’s very interesting that looked at kids in a gifted program in Mississippi uh, over the summer, kids nine to 15, and there were, there was a group with early sleep periods and a group with later sleep periods. Um, And the early sleep period kids they’re. Sleep was from 9:40pm to 7:50am .
The The later group was 1:45 [00:07:00] AM to 10:45 AM
Arielle Greenleaf: What age group was this?
Craig Canapari MD: 9 to 15.
Arielle Greenleaf: Okay.
Craig Canapari MD: And the kids in the later sleep group were more likely to make poor dietary choices, consume more sugary, caffeinated beverages, select other foods like high nutritional density, poor nutritional content. So these changes in the summertime can have a real effect on our children’s health.
Even if as a parent, the sleep is not causing us problems, the kids aren’t waking us up, the kids being disruptive. Letting your child have free reign in the summertime can have significant health consequences.
Arielle Greenleaf: Yeah.
Craig Canapari MD: And, And we were brainstorming the, what are the sort of factors that can affect sleep in the summertime? I don’t know if you wanna kind of go through this list a little bit.
Arielle Greenleaf: Yeah. I think for, you often are dealing with school aged children and I’m mostly dealing with infants and toddlers and certainly, one of the things I saw, especially on social media this year was there was a huge, I know. only saw the uk, there was a huge heat [00:08:00] wave and
there’s
Craig Canapari MD: I was, I was
Arielle Greenleaf: You were there. And and there’s not a lot of air conditioning over there. And so keeping children cool, and especially infants, which is, keeping them cool is essential for SIDS prevention, protection. And so keeping them cool is. An important thing, but how do you keep them cool if you don’t even have air conditioning, things like that.
Craig Canapari MD: it it is true in the context of climate change. We take air conditioning for granted in a lot of places in the States. And in Europe that is not the case. E even in contexts that are very surprising uh, three. Two years ago we were in Rome and we went to the Vatican, which is the home to many priceless works of art.
And it is not climate controlled.
Uh, The Sistine Chapel is lightly climate controlled, but I asked, I think it was probably about 80 degrees in there when I went in.
Which is pretty remarkable when you think of there’s literally priceless works of art. And they’re like, be, will be.
Arielle Greenleaf: they’ve survived this
long,
Craig Canapari MD: it, it is very clear that as the climate warms, and especially in the summertime, it has an effect on sleep. And that’s a safety issue in young uh, infants where we [00:09:00] know elevated room temperatures are a SIDS risk factor.
Arielle Greenleaf: right. Do you have suggestions on how to help with that? Fans obviously keeping, one of the things that I always recommend is keeping the shades drawn throughout the day so that the sun isn’t coming through the windows and, overheating the room even more. But any other suggestions from
Craig Canapari MD: Yeah, that, and that, that’s why so many European homes have shutters for that
Arielle Greenleaf: right.
Craig Canapari MD: reason. Fans I I think personally, if you live in a really hot climate I I would recommend getting a window air conditioner if it is all possible for your baby. Um, You dress them very lightly. They probably, they can sleep fine just in just a onesie or even just a diaper.
Um, They don’t need a blanket. And really pay attention to if it’s, if it’s dangerously uh, maybe go to a cooling center or to a friend’s house where they have a cooler setting. If if you’re in a home the basement’s. Tend to say cooler than the rest of the house. Uh, You might even decamp to the basement to sleep.
Arielle Greenleaf: Yeah.
Craig Canapari MD: but it’s, it can be hard to mitigate.
Arielle Greenleaf: For infants and toddlers, their situations are pretty similar. Again. Environment being [00:10:00] in a different place, which some children are great travelers, some are not. Mine was in the latter category. There are a lot of naps on the go. So instead of being in a crib, they’re, in a car or in a stroller as people are on vacation.
People have to live their lives, right? You can’t expect people to have three crib naps for their infant if they’re on vacation. Those are some of the things that I find the most challenging. Also, being out, like you were talking about, being outta their typical routine. If you are on vacation, things come up.
You might have a party in the evening, and so bedtime may be a little bit later. Some children, again, do well with that. Some do not. Either way, when you’re getting back. Even if your kid is adjusted, your child is adjusted to a later bedtime. coming back to get back on track and that can cause some, difficulty for some parents and families.
Craig Canapari MD: Yeah. And I think when we go by ages kind of [00:11:00] talk about the different sorts of strategies. ’cause I think that they’re gonna be look very for like a baby
Arielle Greenleaf: for
Craig Canapari MD: versus a toddler.
Um, and just to go to some of other affect kids longer days, right? The further north you are, the longer the days are.
Arielle Greenleaf: Yes.
Craig Canapari MD: famously, you know, People in the far north in insomnia is endemic in Alaska in the summertime where it’s like a 20 hour day.
where we live in the northeast, it’s a little bit longer. And a lot of that’s nice, right? Like you can, the fa as a family, you can spend time outside in the evenings much more than you can in the wintertime.
It’s not all bad, but it does change your routine.
Arielle Greenleaf: So controlling that, if you’re able to, and I think most people are able to at least control it a little bit, but exposure to light, right? A lot of my clients are going to bed before the sun goes down, right? It’s already getting sooner, like earlier in the day, in the evening that it’s going down.
I noticed last night at eight 30 it was dim and I was like, stop. A lot of babies and toddlers are going to bed in the seven a 7:00 PM hour. So making sure that room is blacked out is essential, especially in reentry, coming back and then exposing them to, to light in the mornings. As you’re trying to adjust is that can help them adjust their entire schedule and shift things back to where they were.
Craig Canapari MD: It’s it’s tricky though, ’cause like little kids are so light sensitive.
I, I feel like much
That can cut both Like, You can definitely see kids like getting up earlier in the mornings.
Arielle Greenleaf: Absolutely.
Yeah. My child she’s getting in that, prepubescent time, and I can [00:12:00] already see her sleep on set shifting later. And her, she’s waking later in the morning, way later in the morning, but she was so sensitive to any light, so there could be a sliver of light coming in around a curtain, and she’d be up at five 30 or five o’clock in the morning.
I find that now that she’s 10, almost 11. The light doesn’t bother her at all. So I agree that younger children, they see the light, they’re up.
Craig Canapari MD: Yeah, no, it, you know, one thing, one hack that kind of worked for us when we were traveling, we were staying at a vacation house we we to. shuffle The the kids a little bit. So the kids that got up younger were in the same room. uh, you know, it’s, it is fun for the cousins like having sleepovers anyway, in my experience.
And that way at least, you’re not gonna protect your own sleep particularly, but you can maybe protect the sleep of some of the kids who need a little bit more sleep.
I remember my aunt, my wife’s Aunt Li has a place on the beach and we were staying there and the younger kids, a, she had a [00:13:00] walk-in closet without a window.
So like the really little kids we’d put in there, ’cause it’s dark. And and this is really gonna vary depending on your situation where you’re traveling, but sometimes changing where people sleep um, shuffling, who is sleeping with whom. And I’d say also recognizing that other families have different rules and routines than, than you do. And if you’re traveling, if know, really strict about electronics and the other family isn’t. Just be aware that you kids are gonna be asking you about that. And I’m not gonna mention by name the people in our lives who on vacation would let their. Child fall asleep in pack and play with an know, you know who you are.
I don’t think we’re listeners. That was it’s not how we rolled in my I, I, like sort of, see, I think when we talk about teenagers, we can talk about things uh, that are really sleep positive summer camp uh, summer jobs camping. Uh, When we talk about teenagers, we can talk about those are actually, tend to be really good for kids sleep routines.
Arielle Greenleaf: summer camp has been good for my daughter, but like waking her up at six 30 this morning, she’s wanna get up. But I’m [00:14:00] like, dude, your bus is coming at eight this fall. ’cause you’re gonna be in middle school this year. Last year for the past five years, it’s been 9:00 AM which is super late.
But
um. No.
She could have gone, she would’ve been fine going to school at 8:00 AM for the past five years, but now it would’ve been better now for her to go at nine. But I know you’re a huge advocate for later start times for older children too.
Craig Canapari MD: And and looking ahead to middle schoolers and high schoolers it, it can be a real rough landing if you don’t prepare uh, prepare for uh, given how early school starts for a lot of those kids. So I think we talked a little bit about infants already, specifically around the heat factors in travel.
What other sort of tips do you have, like for your clients who have. You know, baby’s less than a year of age if they’re traveling or it’s just the summertime in general.
Arielle Greenleaf: I think we’ve talked about this on previous episodes about travel tips and tricks, but There’s only so much we can control, and if our babies and toddlers are [00:15:00] out of their own environment, they may not sleep well. And you may have to throw the rule book out in order to get the sleep that everyone needs.
And that’s okay. And I think that’s what this. This episode is really about is how do we get them back on track when we get home. Obviously try to control the environment. Dark, cool, quiet, safe. Try to keep them on schedule. Even if the nap is on the go. Try to keep it a normal timeframe so that your kid isn’t like down by you’re trying to give them a nap. Just, keeping them well rested, but also just. Trying to have fun and let go a little bit. That’s really what I try to say. ’cause I think can get so scared to even travel because they don’t wanna get outta their routine because they have literal PTSD from when their children poor sleepers.
So it can be scary, but if you can try to remember that your children now, you know you can get back on track when you’re home, that can be freeing.
Craig Canapari MD: you got, you gotta have a balance, right? the fact, the fact is. I know a lot of the, [00:16:00] our favorite stories in our family about vacations are sometimes go goAnd in the moment it’s stressful, kind of funny,
Arielle Greenleaf: Great.
Craig Canapari MD: uh, in retrospect and you you can’t manage everything. it, It’s, it is just, you know, sometimes your kid’s gonna have a tantrum when you’re traveling.
It’s fine. Everybody has been there, and I guarantee you any adult in the vicinity. Uh, Who has been a parent at some point is just grateful that it’s not their kid.
Arielle Greenleaf: but also having empathy, don’t feel bad if you’re out there and your toddler’s having a tantrum at the beach if you’re surrounded by parents. We’ve all experienced it. It’s not, and like you said, I’m glad it’s not my child, but at the same time I have so much empathy and sympathy and grace for those parents that are going through that while their child.
And the thing is for me, as I always say, also in addition to sleep, is make sure you’re feeding them regular regularly. Like you said feeding schedules can get thrown off and. Children can get very hangry.
They can
Craig Canapari MD: Yeah.
Arielle Greenleaf: and they can get tired. And as long as your child is well fed and you’re keeping them well rested [00:17:00] on some sort of a schedule, you should be okay.
Craig Canapari MD: Yeah, like if your kid’s being really difficult, they’re probably either angry or tired or both.
Arielle Greenleaf: Yes.
Craig Canapari MD: I I remember our particular vacation C cha challenge, which was not a sleep one, is Charlie went through, my oldest uh, went through a phase where he, when he left the beach, you could not have a molecule of sand.
On his feet. W when, like when you were put on a shoe, otherwise there’d be hysteric. would, we would have to bring a bucket of water and in a, sort of like a New Testament way, I would have to wash his feet. As he was getting in the car and make sure that it didn’t touch every anything.
Uh, Some people have told me now that cornstarch works better than water, which is a tip that fortunately I no longer need to do this with my soon to be 18-year-old. But I remember just being like, oh, I love the beach, but
Arielle Greenleaf: yeah. I don’t love the sand.
Craig Canapari MD: leaving is not gonna be great. Yeah. And I’d say for toddlers, the rules of the same.
You maybe have toddlers are a little bit less adaptable than infants, right?
Arielle Greenleaf: I agree a hundred percent.
Craig Canapari MD: I mean, And they’re gonna, there’s this idea we’ve talked about of uh, the Fri forbidden zone In the evening. You really have two windows where your kid’s gonna fall asleep, so your kid misses the, their bedtime.
They might be really active and of wide awake. I don’t think you have to push it. If they’re acting crazy and they’re running around having fun with their cousins or whatever, just recognize there’s like a little, there may be a little bit of a consequence to but that, but that’s okay. Like the fact is vacationing as a parent is not like vacation before you have a parent. And I remember it being a rude awakening uh, on our first trip away with Charlie being like, oh, I can’t just. Hang out by the pool and drink beer and and read a book. like, I actually am not sitting down.
Arielle Greenleaf: That’s why
Craig Canapari MD: Um,
Arielle Greenleaf: vacations. I call them trips. [00:18:00]
Craig Canapari MD: I, I, I, the article, my blog about this uh, is vacation quote, sleep, which I was probably terrible for SEO, but that’s that’s just what it is.
it, it’s, and if your expectations are low, you are less likely to be disappointed.
Arielle Greenleaf: It’s ju it’s difficult though if you’re a type A parent. And I work with a lot of type A parents. It’s very difficult to let go and then to handle if things get crazy while you’re away.
Craig Canapari MD: And, And there’s also the people who you see a lot of who have struggled with their kids’ sleep. They And they’re reluctant to deviate from their routine, but and it’s, it is tricky. I’m not gonna lie. I see sometimes parents come in and oh, my kids kids sleep was going great.
And then we went on vacation and I brought her into bed with me now she has slept in my bed for three years. Um.
Arielle Greenleaf: That’s very common. But I see that quite frequently.
Craig Canapari MD: that that is true in our world. That doesn’t mean it’s the majority of kids uh, where that will happen.
But
Arielle Greenleaf: it’s what I see. If you’re, if it’s
Craig Canapari MD: yeah.
Arielle Greenleaf: causing problems, I’m not gonna see it. But when it is causing problems, I do see it.
Craig Canapari MD: think, And I think if you’ve got an older child, say a preschool or a school age kid, and you’re making some deviations from the routine, like bed sharing, [00:19:00] it’s worth saying, oh, this is a what a fun sleepover we’re gonna have here. This isn’t what we do at home,
Arielle Greenleaf: Right,
Craig Canapari MD: we’re, we’re gonna share the same room.
Maybe you’re gonna be in bed uh, with one parent and your brother will be in bed with the other parent. And what a, what a fun treat for us to do this is not how we’re gonna normally, we normally do and that that uh, I think a good conversation to have you know, I can say for us, you know, when we go on vacation, we usually share a room with our kids because we’re not billionaires.
know, Everybody’s gotta be a little bit more flexible. The struggles are different when you have teenagers, like specifically around people, kids spending a lot of time in the bathroom. I don’t know what I want. No one wanna know what they’re or taking very long showers when we’re all trying to leave. know, it’s it’s still not easy. Not easy. But that’s part of the fun of it too, right?
Arielle Greenleaf: absolutely.
Craig Canapari MD: So, So let’s get into school age kids. ’cause I I gotta say this is something I deal with probably more than you do and I see these are the kids to tend to have more problems. ’cause uh, in general, infants and toddlers are not gonna shift their schedule super late.
[00:20:00] And there’s a couple of reasons for this. One is. Most of them biologically, they’re early risers. And we tend to have stricter rules for little kids, like kids who are sleeping in cribs, kids who are sleeping in toddler beds than we do for school age kids. And and I will say kids that really need their routines, like children with autism who tend to thrive with set routines.
Can have a real difficult time in the summer. Many special needs kids will go to school year round. Uh, They’ll go to summer school or summer programs, but there still are gaps of at least two to three weeks at the beginning of the summer. At the end of the summer and off. And families in this context can really dread this because it means that everything gets off, behaviors get off diet gets off. Sleep gets extremely disrupted.
Arielle Greenleaf: Hmm.
Craig Canapari MD: And what I say to families this is, this is hard, is to try to replicate their schedule as much as possible and really make sure they’re active during the day. And the [00:21:00] fact is, as a parent, you really can provide as much stimulation to I mean, Think about it. They are literally walking through, they’re seeing hundreds of other people.
They’re they’re interacting with many different people. You can’t perfectly replicate that degree of stimulation, that degree of activity. But taking your kid to the park on a set routine, going to a playground, if there is an appropriate summer program for your ch your special needs child, it can be very helpful.
but it is, I’m not gonna it is, it is a challenging time for many special needs kids and, the flip side is I’ve seen many kids in this situation where they’re struggling, They’re struggling, and they’re like age four and a half, they start kindergarten and all of a sudden things get a lot better
because so,
Arielle Greenleaf: structured environment.
Craig Canapari MD: it’s a finite period of time. Um, But it it, uh, and I say to parents, if you’re struggling, if you can find anyone to help you get any respite care from other family members, it can be difficult.
In general, I think it’s important for kids school I, I think through ages 12 or 14, you still have to have a bedtime for your kids and it doesn’t have to be the same bedtime, but [00:22:00] I would not recommend, say having your 8-year-old have no bedtime, which I see very frequently in the summertime,
Arielle Greenleaf: Yeah.
Craig Canapari MD: um, that they’re there’s this vibe that well, you don’t have to, anything you gotta do tomorrow, just do whatever you want. And if they’re teenagers in the house, their little kids will wanna be on that schedule.
Arielle Greenleaf: Yeah.
Craig Canapari MD: Um, you know, I think it’s still good to have a bedtime. My recommendation is if your kid is.
not in puberty yet. Usually shifting the schedule about an hour later is a pretty safe bet
for Kids in puberty. We’ll get to like teenagers uh, and pre-teens two hours I think is fine and much more realistic
Arielle Greenleaf: Mm-hmm.
Craig Canapari MD: and maybe on special nights even later. But like on an average night, I’d say, you know, if they go to bed at nine o’clock on the school week, let you know, have ’em go to bed 10.
Or if they’re like, like if they’re like a 11 or 12-year-old, like 11 at the it’s just, you don’t want to have to unroll this at the end of the Be because I guarantee you, you’re not, your child is not doing enriching activities. They’re probably on screens.
Arielle Greenleaf: [00:23:00] Yeah
Yeah.
Craig Canapari MD: uh, one excuse that has never carried water in my house and doesn’t for my patients either is what other kids are doing.
Arielle Greenleaf: Yeah.
Craig Canapari MD: Just because your 10 year old’s friend is up all night on Snapchat or something does not mean that your child gets to do I I also would strongly recommend that you have the same screen time rules in the summer as you do on uh, during the school which that your your kids’ devices don’t live in the room at night.
Arielle Greenleaf: right.
Craig Canapari MD: That can be hard to reinforce with teenagers who go to bed later,
Arielle Greenleaf: Then
you
Craig Canapari MD: later Than you than you do. which which happens in the summertime.
Arielle Greenleaf: Sure.
Craig Canapari MD: uh, I’d say for teens kind of take a different tack. For, I think teenagers need to have some autonomy and if you’re trying to manage their bedtime when they maybe.
You know, They may not be working and you’re working is a battle, but trying to set a wake time is mutually agreed upon is a good idea.
uh, Again, there’s the perfect world and there’s the real world. And the real world may their wake time a is a little a little bit later than you like, but your child can commit to it and it’s not gonna be a [00:24:00] battle every day.
Arielle Greenleaf: Right.
Craig Canapari MD: Uh, This is why summer activities are so important for older kids.
I can tell you like summer camp is like magic for my kids with sleep issues um, because especially sleepaway camp, if they go away. Uh, The rules at camp are much more inflexible. The rules at home the the kids go to bed and get up at the same wake time.
Most summer camps, they’re not necessarily letting them have their devices, or at least they have rules around them. And the kids are very busy during the day. Yeah, they’re outside.
Arielle Greenleaf: outside.
Craig Canapari MD: did, I did computer camp,
Arielle Greenleaf: okay. Okay. All right.
Craig Canapari MD: I actually was too nerdy to go sleep away camp. I was, I was too much of a fraidy
Arielle Greenleaf: Oh
Craig Canapari MD: but I, I did go to Boy Scout.
Arielle Greenleaf: So you were on screens
Craig Canapari MD: was on, I was on a, yeah, like a monochrome monitor, writing programs in BASIC, that would say my name a million times.
Arielle Greenleaf: your brain, you
Craig Canapari MD: I was Using my brain and my, my weak little nerd body to carry books around and stuff. um, Summer jobs are helpful. sort of like real magical reset uh, and that is camping. there’s There’s actually a couple of articles looking at camping for teenagers that have really severe delayed [00:25:00] sleep phase. When we say delayed sleep phase, that means their natural sleep periods have shifted significantly later than they need to be for their lives. So imagine a kid who’s sleeping from three to noon every day.
Very common in the summertime, and on weekends and teens. During the pandemic, when we had this longer period, I saw many teenagers who were up all night and sleeping all day, and there wasn’t much we could do about it because if everybody’s doing it, is it a problem or does it just reflect the circumstances?
Arielle Greenleaf: am laughing because that was me when I was a teenager.
know,
Craig Canapari MD: Yeah.
Arielle Greenleaf: like up late and sleeping till noon, and now I’m like, lucky if I can sleep till 8:00 AM
Craig Canapari MD: So Well that’s, uh, your child will ruin your sleep. That’s true.
Arielle Greenleaf: of waking up in the five and 6:00 AM
Craig Canapari MD: you become a obligate morning person.
Um.
Arielle Greenleaf: because I’m up now earlier than my child, which just blows my mind.
Craig Canapari MD: Oh yeah, too. I’m I’m the person that gets everybody up in our house. But but anyway, going back to the camping thing, they took kids with these sleep schedules on a camping trip. They did not have them bring their screens and [00:26:00] over four days they totally reset to going to bed not too late and getting uh, close to dawn
Arielle Greenleaf: Is
Craig Canapari MD: like.
Arielle Greenleaf: The exposure to like,
Craig Canapari MD: It was from it was from, I I think they were thinking it was largely uh, the technical term would entrainment uh, having the only light exposures, being natural light exposures. Um, But the, I I’m sure they weren’t just sitting around the uh, listening to them complain about the fact they didn’t have their phones.
But, you know, so I’d say if you have a teenager that’s really shifted late and your family likes to do something like this, if you planned a trip like this at the end of the summer, it actually. Might be very helpful. Another thing that comes uh, ’cause I I, I I care for a wide range from various socioeconomic backgrounds , but but I do care for a fair amount of affluent uh, families.
if if you are traveling east that will also help set your schedule earlier. So on the East Coast, if you’re going to Europe or if you’re on the west coast, you’re coming to the East coast. It’ll take about one day of jet lag to fully set your schedule towards it. So if it’s a five hour trip, it’ll take about five days, then you’re on an earlier schedule. If you come back right into the school year, your kid will have an [00:27:00] easier time getting up early. Again, not your insurance is gonna pay for a trip to Europe, but if you were planning on it anyway and you had concerns about this, doing it at the end of the summer may be helpful.
Arielle Greenleaf: I am gonna let my boss know that because they’re travel, they’re, they live in California and she was telling me that they’re gonna be on the East coast for vacation, and then the next week they, the kids go back to school. So that’s actually gonna benefit everybody.
Craig Canapari MD: It is perfect. I’d say that um, the big themes for me would be I, I don’t Let, let, Let’s do round robin, like what are the things you’d say to parents in general, what to do this summer? For the me, for me, number one, keep a routine. Doesn’t have to be exactly the same as the week as the school year routine.
For most kids have a set bed time, I’d say for ages 12 to 14 and up. have a set wake time. What, What’s a good one for you?
Arielle Greenleaf: Yeah. I for being on vacation. Do you want me to talk? I thought we were talking about coming back from vacation.
No.
Craig Canapari MD: Let’s talk about both.
Arielle Greenleaf: So for going on vacation, like you were saying before, my clients come to me. in desperation. I don’t have people coming to me with easy [00:28:00] children or
you know,
Craig Canapari MD: Sure.
Arielle Greenleaf: that were great sleepers, you know what I’m saying? They become easier once they do sleep. So going away, I just really try to impress upon parents, keep them well rested. Try to stick to a similar schedule within, like you were saying, I think within half an hour of what you normally are seeing and be little infants are much easier. Sometimes as if they’re sleep trained and they’re on a real schedule, they can be pretty rigid. So that’s why I would say, try to keep the schedule within 30 to 60 minutes. Even if it’s on the go, that’s fine. Car naps, stroller, naps. To keep bedtime at a reasonable hour. If it’s going to be a later bedtime, maybe add another little 30 minute stroller, nap for an infant, things like that.
And for toddlers, usually the toddlers are on one nap. So if you can prioritize that nap, go to the beach in the morning, come home, have lunch, nap time, go back to the beach, something like that, that can help immensely as well. But
Craig Canapari MD: Skip the hottest time of the day of the
Arielle Greenleaf: yeah. And. Ultimately, again, people are [00:29:00] scared because they have dealt with children that haven’t slept, and it’s been recent, right?
They’ve finally gotten them to a good place. So I try to just let them know your kids have the skills to sleep well, to remember that. Do your best. And if all hell breaks loose when you get home, you just start. Get back on schedule and when you get back on schedule, I talk about the controlled wake up, what you were saying. Controlling that wake up time will then help naps fall into the right timing and then bedtime fall into the right timing. And it may take a little bit to adjust, but within a couple of days, babies and toddlers can pretty quickly adjust back to what I would say if, if you fell into bad habits. Like bed sharing or, whatever it might be. Try to eliminate that as soon as possible when you get back. It can be tricky and your child might protest, but it shouldn’t take more than a day or two to get back.
Craig Canapari MD: I I think that’s really good advice don’t you, If you have achieved good sleep, you will be able to achieve it again.
Um, And you know, parents come back to me, they’re like, my kid was sleeping well, and then they’re [00:30:00] not, and they’re like, I don’t know what happened. And then you start asking them and they’re like, yeah, bedtime slipped a little bit later.
And I started falling. I started staying with him when he falls asleep again and be like, okay. Um, One thing I would add to in the summertime um, there’s a lot of evidence that kids actually without routines, get a little bit less sleep than they do during the school year, which is the opposite of what we of like, oh, the summers are chill, but the kid, if the kids are staying up super late. Even if they’re shifting their wake time later, just think about what happens. The room is getting bright,
Arielle Greenleaf: Mm-hmm.
Craig Canapari MD: They’re getting less sleep. So I would say that to parents, it’s okay for the schedule to slide a little bit, but you still have to pay attention to make sure your child’s getting enough sleep.
Arielle Greenleaf: Absolutely.
Craig Canapari MD: And, And the best barometer of that on most kids is if you have to wake them up in the morning, they’re probably not getting enough sleep
and. I won’t say the teenagers lie, but they may shade the truth if you ask them when they went to sleep. There’s a cool hack. Somebody showed uh, at least on [00:31:00] iPhones, may I make a little bit of a video about this, where you can look at the battery consumption on Someone’s phone
Arielle Greenleaf: Oh.
Craig Canapari MD: see when they stopped using it.
So if you actually want to ask your kid, be like, they’re like, oh, I went to bed then, and be like, oh, you know, let me just, I I guess this should be agreed upon in advance that you’re able to look at your kid’s phone uh, with their permission. You can actually see when they stopped looking at it the night before
Arielle Greenleaf: the
Craig Canapari MD: like when the screen went off.
Arielle Greenleaf: if you have parental controls set up on an a iPhone, my daughter has an iPad and I have from my phone to see even how long she spent on any given thing, like YouTube or,
Craig Canapari MD: sure.
Arielle Greenleaf: doesn’t have social media, so anything like that. like. I can see how long she was on there for and when she started and stopped using it.
Craig Canapari MD: Though, I will say the ultimate parental control at night is having possession of your child’s devices.
Arielle Greenleaf: for
Craig Canapari MD: I am skeptical of any parent who says that software is keeping their child from accessing their device at night if it’s in their room,
Arielle Greenleaf: it’s I.
allowed in her room at night.
Craig Canapari MD: um, um, do you [00:32:00] use just Apple stuff or do you use like Life 360 or something?
Arielle Greenleaf: at the point of life. 360 I. Learning about it. She’s just not, we’re not quite there yet. So I just use the apple, whatever it is on there. It shows you screen
time
Craig Canapari MD: Yeah, that’s.
Arielle Greenleaf: But eventually I will be putting other things on there. I just we’re not there yet.
Craig Canapari MD: That’s what we used. And honestly, I don’t know. I just didn’t feel like. Surveilling them that closely. But every family makes different decisions.
So I think we should close by talking about what do you do if is shifted a lot later ? And this is, we were talking before, this is incredibly common for me to see teenagers come in and they’ve shifted their schedule much later.
So here’s what I recommend. I I think for most kids. And this is, this, never endears Dr. Canna Perry to his patients, especially if they’re coming to see me for asthma or something like that.
Arielle Greenleaf: Hmm.
Craig Canapari MD: for your average kid who has shifted a little bit later in the summer I’d say for teenagers, plan on for, uh, at least four or five days before the beginning of the school year, getting them up at eight in the morning, taking them up for a walk in the sunshine.
That’s all you really need to do. You don’t need to have, make some big production about this, but I would say for kids that consistently sleeping [00:33:00] very late and I’d say very late is more than four or five hours later,
Arielle Greenleaf: Hmm
Craig Canapari MD: they’re gonna have to wake up for school. So honestly, they’re getting up at, if they’re getting up uh, have to get up at six in the morning for school, which is a common wake time in the US for teenagers.
They’re sleeping till noon every day. They’re gonna have a real hard time when school starts if you don’t make some plans.
Um, And I a couple of recommendations in And and the first is actually. You’ve gotta talk with your child about this issue. If you’re trying to roll out some changes and they don’t understand why or aren’t on board, it’s just gonna create a lot of conflict.
I of talk to, your kid may be thinking about this and be like, hey, I noticed you’ve been sleeping pretty You’re starting school in a couple of weeks. That’s gonna be pretty rough. I think that might be pretty rough for you. And just talk to ’em a little bit about it.
For kids that are really shifted later you can move their wake time earlier gradually. And you can move The the way you do this is you move their wake time earlier.
You can do that pretty easily, pretty painlessly, about 10 to 15 minutes per day. And you gotta get them on board [00:34:00] with this.
know, getting up 15 minutes earlier day is a lot easier than well, you’ve been getting up at noon now. I just want you to start getting up at eight in the Bedtime is gonna adjust if you start moving that earlier. I think it’s worth also talking with them about what the, if the screen time rules are different in your home during the summertime.
Maybe working towards that goal gradually as well.
uh, Having morning light exposure can be helpful. Uh, Opening the blinds in the uh, before your teenager wakes up can help entrain them earlier. where this gets really tricky is if you have a kid that’s quite late shifted, like they’re sleeping all day.
Sometimes that morning light exposure can actually. Have the opposite effect because it’s early in their circadian day. Like Imagine you have a kid that’s sleeping from 7:00 AM to 5:00 PM not to get too in the weeds here. the the strongest effect for wake time for for sunlight is about an hour before you’re naturally waking up.
uh, And if you’re on the other side of that uh, the light can move things the wrong way.
Arielle Greenleaf: shift, shift work.
Craig Canapari MD: Yeah. Well, a, is a real complicated but yeah, I’d say opening the blinds an hour or two before when they’re naturally waking, would be the safe thing to [00:35:00] do. And I’d say if this is causing a lot of conflict in your house or you are really worried about it, it would be worth taking your to your child’s pediatrician.
Uh, And just having a conversation about it. Sometimes having another adult who is not you talk about why this is important can break through in a way that the fact is we all know even when I was I don’t wanna get content wearing here, I was gonna be say a crap head, teen.
I would recognize that my parents would be right about stuff, but if they told me stuff, I still wouldn’t it because they they were my parents and it’s lame to listen to them.
Um, but if another adult I trusted, like my pediatrician said the same thing, I’d be sort of grudgingly being like, okay, they’re probably right about this.
I you know, in in involving your child’s healthcare provider. And really this is the time to start thinking about if your kid’s going back to school in a couple of weeks. if, If hopefully we’ll get this issue up. Issue episode out pretty quickly um, or even it’s a month from just sort of thinking about these things set set your child up for success when the school year starts.
if if your child [00:36:00] is sleep deprived for the first week of school, when they’re making impression for first impressions on their new teachers kind of learning how the school year works. It can really, of the.
Arielle Greenleaf: Yeah, absolutely. I don’t think that I run into many issues with infants and toddlers of shift in schedule, that drastic. so that’s generally what I run into is that they’ve had to do something to assist their child to sleep, and then now they wanna undo that when they get home. Scheduling, but always a controlled wake up is helpful if the child has started sleeping later than maybe you would be leaving for daycare. A similar situation just, I don’t see that schedules have shifted by hours much so
Craig Canapari MD: the, the schedule stuff feel like is pretty easy in little kids. They’re, ’cause they’re like, their biology is kind of biased. They’re getting up in the morning.
Arielle Greenleaf: Yeah.
Craig Canapari MD: It’s more, yeah, it’s more putting the routine back together.
Um, and that can happen gradually, Like If you’re like, oh, you had such a, I dunno. I, I, and one thing I, I would close with uh, for me personally, if you make some changes over the summer where things are relaxed and things are still going well, that’s okay.
Arielle Greenleaf: Absolutely.
Anything if it’s going and it like is working for your [00:37:00] lifestyle.
Craig Canapari MD: know, Like sometimes people have this guilt about being like, oh, I started falling asleep with my kid at bedtime, my, or staying with my kid till they fall asleep like, well, do they wake up at night or are they sleeping well? They’re like, oh, they’re sleeping great. I’m like,
Arielle Greenleaf: Does it bother you if you sleeping or laying next to them? No, it doesn’t. So then who cares? No big
deal.
It is
only a. problem
if it’s like disrupting sleep for everybody.
Craig Canapari MD: It. It’s funny, in the big Bible of sleep disorders, it’s called the International Classification of Sleep Disorders Chronic insomnia is defined as three months of sleep problems. So for adult insomnia, it’s like being unsatisfied with your sleep is one of the criteria for chronic insomnia kids is if the parent is unsatisfied with the sleep.
So really, parental satisfaction is a big dimension of this.
Arielle Greenleaf: it’s It’s all, subjective.
Craig Canapari MD: Yeah. So listen, that’s all I got today. Arielle, you always have to remind me where people can find us.
Arielle Greenleaf: thesleepedit podcast@gmail.com.

Craig Canapari MD: yeah. we’ll we’ll uh, links for stuff we talked about in the show notes. And I think the next episode we’re gonna be talking on napping. Right?
Arielle Greenleaf: Yeah, I’m excited about that one. That is a big one, and actually a great one. For when people are coming [00:38:00] back from vacation.
Craig Canapari MD: Oh man, the struggle real. real. My kids were terrible nap. My older one was a terrible napper until he was like a year and a half, and then he was great.
Arielle Greenleaf: it’s rough.
Craig Canapari MD: Okay, well hope everyone’s having a good summer and uh, thanks for listening.
Arielle Greenleaf: See
See you next time. I.
Craig Canapari MD: Thanks so much for listening to the Sleep edit. You can find transcripts at the web address Sleeped show. You can also find video of the episodes at that address as well as in my YouTube channel. You can find me at Dr. Craig canna perry.com and on all social media at D-R-C-A-N-A-P-A-R-I. You can find Ariel at Instagram at Ariel Greenleaf.
That’s A-R-I-E-L-L-E-G-R-E. N-L-E-A-F. If you like the flavor of the advice here, please check out my book. It’s Never Too Late to Sleep. Train the low stress way to high [00:39:00] quality sleep for babies, kids, and parents. It’s available wherever fine books are sold. If you found this useful, please subscribe at Spotify or Apple Podcast and share it with your friends.
It really helps as we’re trying to get the show off the ground. Thanks.
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